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49 Unique Guild Members
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84315 Total Posts
Past is the last poster

RonS Raiding Days/Rules
RonS Raiding Days/Rules
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A lot of problems come in when you have the person with the highest dkp winning an item for a static amount.

1. Basically whoever is ahead now will stay ahead forever, this happened in pias and forced a decay system that really didn't fix ppl with top dkp from getting everything first. Don't know how much this bothers us.

2. We gave dkp out like candy but didn't give it out evenly in an attempt to reward past effort. Ex: Cowman raided less than Moophasa but Mooph started with about 50 less dkp. Switching to a 'now your total dkp decides when you get stuff' will means ppl like mooph might get pist. Mooph won't cuz he's not gay about internet glory but just saying.

PS: About alts (my hunter) getting carried. I think the guidelines we have are good but should be a little stricter about what they can take from main chars, we did this in pias and I still agree with it. But we don't do that so...

Somebody like me brings a fresh 80 into naxx to get geared out. Have I earned a 'carry me for a week or two' run? I don't know, the only reason I think maybe is 2 reasons:

1. I've been at every 25 man naxx we've ever done minus 1 healing. So if anyone has ever brought in a char, be it new or alt, that was being 'carried' they have been healed by me. TLDR I've paid my raiding dues.

2. It's 3.1 and it's naxx. Once we can get a couple bosses down in Uld25 Naxx25 won't be run naxx25 and if it is it will be an alt or 'last pieces my main wants' run. Which it is currently for more hardcore guilds that spend all week pounding their heads in Uld.

So I suggest 2 extra rules for bring and alt:

1. Have a 'They paid their raiding dues' mark the person must reach.
2. Can only be in old, farm content. AKA not Uld.25 until that char is able to pull it's weight.

Just my 2 cents.
Quote
Situation: Person A desires an item X, auction system, he bids 80dkp and wins.
Few weeks later, Person B's alt comes in, item X drops again, alt bids and wins with 20DKP


But several weeks later, that item probably shouldn't be worth as much as it was when it was first dropped. It's the whole "early-adopter" thing. iPhones were $600 when they launched, and everyone wanted them. 4 months later, they were dropped to $400.

The hot new items SHOULD be worth more. I just suspect that with 25-man raids, the prices of items are dropping faster than one would otherwise think.


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Quote by greenridge
Quote by critsammich



  • Item prices are set, meaning anyone that gets a certain item spent the same amount of DKP to get it... you can't get anymore fair than that.
    (Note: I've heard of item prices being changed after a certain # of them have dropped, this may be to make it cheaper for newer people?)




  • item prices should not be the same over time.



    I agree, which is why I put the note in there. For example, fucking sinister revenge. Get one every other week it seems. First DKP on one was 30ish? Now they are going for like 2 DKP.

    I like their mention of a possible minimum bid. Maybe that would help alleviate most of the gripes I have about the current system. (since item prices were my biggest gripe).


    PS. greenridge, did ismael talk to you about last nights 25man? At least 2 items (final voyage, leggings of the fleeting moments) that I know of were bid and won by someone but not put in the system.

    Side-note. I miss these types of discussions. They are one of the few things I still like about MMO games. Little mini economies are fun to analyze.


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    Quote by Soulman
    A lot of problems come in when you have the person with the highest dkp winning an item for a static amount.

    1. Basically whoever is ahead now will stay ahead forever, this happened in pias and forced a decay system that really didn't fix ppl with top dkp from getting everything first. Don't know how much this bothers us.




    How with our system? If someone is constantly on top, then they are not spending DKP. If they are constantly winning items... then their DKP is dropping, otherwise there is a bigger flaw in the system where someone can win a bunch of items but still be on top with DKP. (If they are winning items, their DKP is going down... everyone else's is going up)
    Quote
    PS. greenridge, did ismael talk to you about last nights 25man? At least 2 items (final voyage, leggings of the fleeting moments) that I know of were bid and won by someone but not put in the system.



    Looks like RoNS has their very own guild jew, just like PiaS did.

    LOL MAXAMOS!


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    Quote

    Note: Ismael has set some guidelines on alts raiding (no new content, can't be decked out in greens, etc), but we've strayed away from the gear requirement (read: alts in greens getting carried)


    I'm also not mom and I expect people to follow these rules.

    FR set
    Chest
    Gloves
    Or Badge gear were the requirements, but that's a different conversation, considering the balancing trick were having to do.


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    Quote by Chops
    Quote
    Situation: Person A desires an item X, auction system, he bids 80dkp and wins.
    Few weeks later, Person B's alt comes in, item X drops again, alt bids and wins with 20DKP


    But several weeks later, that item probably shouldn't be worth as much as it was when it was first dropped. It's the whole "early-adopter" thing. iPhones were $600 when they launched, and everyone wanted them. 4 months later, they were dropped to $400.

    The hot new items SHOULD be worth more. I just suspect that with 25-man raids, the prices of items are dropping faster than one would otherwise think.


    I agree. I'm not saying set prices can't be adjusted, in fact they should. But the way we have it now, we literally have an item going for 60DKP this week, and next week someone gets it for 5 just because their competing class wasn't there (read: they got lucky). It's not like we've had 10 drop in between those 2 prices. And you're point of minimum bids would probably make me like our current auction system ALOT better than I do now.

    Quote by Ismael
    Quote

    Note: Ismael has set some guidelines on alts raiding (no new content, can't be decked out in greens, etc), but we've strayed away from the gear requirement (read: alts in greens getting carried)


    I'm also not mom and I expect people to follow these rules.

    FR set
    Chest
    Gloves
    Or Badge gear were the requirements, but that's a different conversation, considering the balancing trick were having to do.


    I don't expect you to catch of that either. I think it's the officers' responsibility to catch this and deal with it.


    edit- ive got more to say on this subject, wanted to submit my comment now bc the electricity at work just cut off and i think I have 20min on backup power... lol.
    Quote
    If someone is constantly on top, then they are not spending DKP.


    Absolutely true. The thing with a static item setup, though, is that the top players won't be spending as much as they could be on the uber items. That's what makes the auction setup awesome: a hot new item drops that everyone wants (Talisman of Ephemeral PowerRefresh This Item and the Azuresong MagebladeRefresh This Item OH YEAH!) and whoever wants them will do whatever they can to get it.

    Sometimes though, especially with the heavy raiders that have everything beaten many times over, there's just nothing left to spend points on.

    So the problem of the top-DKP hoarding (notice the spelling, bitches), exists in any DKP-type system. The difference, for the top-by-a-mile DKP-holder, in a static system, there's no penalty for getting the new uber-item first, while in a zero-sum system, if the top-DKP is patient, he can just get that hot item a few weeks later for significantly less, putting less of a dent in their total.


    --
    Quote by Chops
    Quote
    If someone is constantly on top, then they are not spending DKP.


    Absolutely true. The thing with a static item setup, though, is that the top players won't be spending as much as they could be on the uber items. That's what makes the auction setup awesome: a hot new item drops that everyone wants (Talisman of Ephemeral PowerRefresh This Item and the Azuresong MagebladeRefresh This Item OH YEAH!) and whoever wants them will do whatever they can to get it.

    Sometimes though, especially with the heavy raiders that have everything beaten many times over, there's just nothing left to spend points on.

    So the problem of the top-DKP hoarding (notice the spelling, bitches), exists in any DKP-type system. The difference, for the top-by-a-mile DKP-holder, in a static system, there's no penalty for getting the new uber-item first, while in a zero-sum system, if the top-DKP is patient, he can just get that hot item a few weeks later for significantly less, putting less of a dent in their total.


    This
    Quote by Chops
    Quote
    If someone is constantly on top, then they are not spending DKP.


    Absolutely true. The thing with a static item setup, though, is that the top players won't be spending as much as they could be on the uber items. That's what makes the auction setup awesome: a hot new item drops that everyone wants (Talisman of Ephemeral PowerRefresh This Item and the Azuresong MagebladeRefresh This Item OH YEAH!) and whoever wants them will do whatever they can to get it.

    Sometimes though, especially with the heavy raiders that have everything beaten many times over, there's just nothing left to spend points on.

    So the problem of the top-DKP hoarding (notice the spelling, bitches), exists in any DKP-type system. The difference, for the top-by-a-mile DKP-holder, in a static system, there's no penalty for getting the new uber-item first, while in a zero-sum system, if the top-DKP is patient, he can just get that hot item a few weeks later for significantly less, putting less of a dent in their total.


    Shouldn't the people that put the most work in have more of a shot at getting stuff?

    Also, I always bid 1 on an item. I don't need gear to be amazing.



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    i really don't mind either way. it seems at this point we have 3 options:

    1. static prices. this is a good option because you reward those that come the most with the best items first, for a low price. this is a good way to make your good players better and hopefully progress as fast as possible. the downside is that the people at the bottom of the totem pole are discouraged because they know they dont even have a chance at most items and have little incentive to come. with our current situation, i think discouraging the undergeared and new people is bad idea. we dont exactly have the largest player base. in addition, static prices require the most work and upkeep for those running the system.

    2. silent auction. this is a good option because item price is totally determined by demand. it rewards everyone because you can 'save up' and get the item that you want pretty easily, but you have to spend a large sum of dkp to get it first. i think this system works best with a wide range of player skill, gear and agendas, because people always have a chance at getting an item. the downside is that item prices can fluctuate wildly because of the small economy (~40 people) and randomness of drops. one week we may have several items go for 1 dkp, which doesn't help spread dkp around. in addition, a new person can walk in and 'steal' an item from a veteran by dumping all their dkp on it.

    3. min bids with auction. this has been suggested as an alternative. i think it solves a few problems, like wildly fluctuating item prices and not giving handouts to people. but it doesnt really solve the problem of people dumping dkp on items. it almost seems like having a maximum bid would be a better idea, so if multiple people bid the max then it is given to the person with the highest dkp.
    Quote by Ismael
    Quote by Chops
    Quote
    If someone is constantly on top, then they are not spending DKP.


    Absolutely true. The thing with a static item setup, though, is that the top players won't be spending as much as they could be on the uber items. That's what makes the auction setup awesome: a hot new item drops that everyone wants (Talisman of Ephemeral PowerRefresh This Item and the Azuresong MagebladeRefresh This Item OH YEAH!) and whoever wants them will do whatever they can to get it.

    Sometimes though, especially with the heavy raiders that have everything beaten many times over, there's just nothing left to spend points on.

    So the problem of the top-DKP hoarding (notice the spelling, bitches), exists in any DKP-type system. The difference, for the top-by-a-mile DKP-holder, in a static system, there's no penalty for getting the new uber-item first, while in a zero-sum system, if the top-DKP is patient, he can just get that hot item a few weeks later for significantly less, putting less of a dent in their total.


    Shouldn't the people that put the most work in have more of a shot at getting stuff?

    Also, I always bid 1 on an item. I don't need gear to be amazing.



    http://www.thursday.com/dkp/view_players.php

    Also, remember I arbitrarily assigned starting dkp from 50-200 when greenridge made the system and we started late when some people had already gotten their gear. Being honest I prefer a discussion about this than a rant about how I shouldn't be loot God.




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    Quote
    Shouldn't the people that put the most work in have more of a shot at getting stuff?


    Absolutely. The "problem" (if you want to call it that) only arises when/if someone has such a massive lead in DKP that that person essentially has locked in their status as always being able to bid first on any item they want.

    But the top raiders should typically have first dibs, and a DKP system is obviouly designed around that.

    I find myself leaning more and more toward a zero-sum static-price-based-on-stat-formula setup, because that will naturally increase the price of items over time, making the relative value of older items less over time.

    Of course, I haven't raided with DKP for 3 years, so my advice is more general discussion, rather than recent hands-on with your current system.


    --
    Quote
    it almost seems like having a maximum bid would be a better idea, so if multiple people bid the max then it is given to the person with the highest dkp.


    I don't think a maximum bid is ever a good idea. The market will absolutely solve the problem of a maximum bid. If someone wants an item that bad, and has the DKP to spend, why not allow it? The player gets their desired item at a price they volunteered to pay, and everyone present gets that many more points. It's a win-win, as far as I can tell.

    It's up to the user to balance how much they want a particular item.


    --
    Quote
    Of course, I haven't raided with DKP for 3 years, so my advice is more general discussion, rather than recent hands-on with your current system.


    There's a lot of pros to our current system. One of them being the fact that it rewards people who are patient and don't go nuts over side grades and allow other people to get larger upgrades.

    On the other hand, I can see how someone would get annoyed when an item drops you drop a good chunk of your dkp for it while someone else gets it for 1 the next week.

    Quote
    2. silent auction. this is a good option because item price is totally determined by demand. it rewards everyone because you can 'save up' and get the item that you want pretty easily, but you have to spend a large sum of dkp to get it first. i think this system works best with a wide range of player skill, gear and agendas, because people always have a chance at getting an item. the downside is that item prices can fluctuate wildly because of the small economy (~40 people) and randomness of drops. one week we may have several items go for 1 dkp, which doesn't help spread dkp around. in addition, a new person can walk in and 'steal' an item from a veteran by dumping all their dkp on it.


    When situation like this arise, AKA KT loot (weapons) I find that our "this item is not for bids" stance is fine, and more so fair. An alt, or a new person should never get a "wanted" item over one of our raiders that has been to nearly every raid. Its good to take in to consideration that when people spend dkp overall goes up, but does the desire for a general rise in dkp overcome the hoarding mentality? My interests with the dkp system in general is forcing a positive mindset on people...for the most part I think the current system has some of that.

    Quote
    I don't think a maximum bid is ever a good idea. The market will absolutely solve the problem of a maximum bid. If someone wants an item that bad, and has the DKP to spend, why not allow it? The player gets their desired item at a price they volunteered to pay, and everyone present gets that many more points. It's a win-win, as far as I can tell.


    As people start to dip towards the bottom of the pool, I for see an issue with motivation and raiding to get yourself out of the hole. This was one of the issues I had with the PIAS dkp system, I think I went about uh...57 in to the hole at which point there was still upgrades for me but I had 0 dkp to spend.

    What happens when a relatively new person can use a piece of gear but has no dkp for it and the item will just be disenchanted anyway?

    My issue with someone dumping 288 dkp on an item is that to me it seems like a good reason not to raid anymore... but why would you want the item? On the other hand tho, it is their dkp they should do what they want with it.


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    Quote
    What happens when a relatively new person can use a piece of gear but has no dkp for it and the item will just be disenchanted anyway?


    That is a problem, and that was one of the problems we had with the static items setup (before we switched to auction). Because the items always costa static value, and no one else in the raid wanted it, and the items always went to the highest DKP that wanted it (even if their DKP was negative), new, undergeared members would rack up a pile of items in the first week, and end up in the deep negative right off the bat.

    Auction-based definitely helps that, for sure.

    (I honestly don't remember exactly when we switched to auction. I'm picturing it happening around the time we first killed Broodlord. I know prices were static through all of MC.)

    Quote
    My issue with someone dumping 288 dkp on something is that, I would see that as them clearing their dkp pool to leave on "good" terms.


    If someone's planning to leave, setting a maximum bid isn't going to stop that.


    --
    i missed two items last night i guess for soulshock,

    does anyone remember how much he bid on:
    Final Voyage
    Leggings of Fleeting Moments
    2 on the leggs and 35 on bow

    And for the dkps situation: With the pias static system, the top dkps ppl got everything off the last third of the instance for months. What this did was make half the raid not want to come or try hard if they did come to progression content because they knew they had no chance at anything. I'm not saying thats right or wrong but that is what happens and we have to have a good enough dkp system to defeat that, especially when that last third of the instance is hard like I think Uld will be for us.


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