There's no real situation, its just more opening for discussion.

Yes mom, ps you are mom now. And you better have big tits.

He's working hard to get rid of the tits. But in regards to DKP, I feel that a minimum bid is a great idea.... in Uld. Not in naxx.

As for pricing over time, Remember, how many turning tides have dropped? Plenty. But I still had no problem dropping the 50 DKP I was asked to pay for an item that was gaurenteed to be mine. I dont mind that last night, I see mozeen payed 17 for it.

In regards to alts, I dont care how much DKP you spend, an alt should never get gear over a main. As I said whenever I bid with my mage, I bid but pass to mains.

I've spent a whole lotta DKP myself, because in my old guild, I was the hoarder. Sat on top of the list forever, waiting for my big ticket items to drop, then the guild broke up.

loooooooooool.

I honestly don't see how this "top by a mile" DKP raider can occur in a zero sum system. The only way they are top by a mile is if:
1) They aren't spending DKP on anything.
2) Everyone below them is.

So... this person is showing up to raiding and EARNING dkp. They are not spending it on any items that drop... meaning everyone else is getting gear over them. If this person is choosing to not spend their DKP in order to save up for an item... why should that person have to pay a different price than anyone else? Even if it is a "hot new" item. They worked for the DKP right? They aren't preventing anyone else from getting items are they?

I only see that case coming up if someone is sucking off Greenridge for free DKP or if DKP is being given out to this one person, and no one else is able to get it.

I definitely see the problem with this scenario... but it sounds like there is a flaw with how DKP is being awarded... not a problem with the loot system.




Again, maybe that's something that our system has overcome, but whether we use static or auction, I don't see a case arising where someone has THAT much dkp where they can win every piece of loot off the last 3rd of an instance and still end up with more DKP than everyone. (PS. I wasn't trying to call you out for gear last night, I had bid on the crossbow last night and was curious how much it went for. When I went to look for it on the site, it wasn't there, which lead me to look for who won it... then I saw the pants you got also weren't on there... OMG I just realized it...YOU'VE been sucking off greenridge? where can I sign up?)

I'd like to see minimum bids on items for sure, even in naxx 25.

Lucky, as an example in your case. For 1 item, yeh no biggie. But when it's enough items, a new raider can come in, get the same gear as you (for cheaper) and by the time we get into Ulduar and start seeing upgrades, he's got as much DKP as you (since you're spending 50 DKP on an item, he gets it for 17, he's close the gap by 33, add in a few more items like that and he'll have equal gear and equal DKP)

Nothing against mozeen in particular (just using the example), but in grand scheme of things, on the runs that the new raiders are coming to (most of them have never done the fights) the raiders like yourself are explaining the fights, carrying the group (with better gear), and executing it with experience which makes it a ton easier on those people. I think there should be either 1) a gear gap 2)a dkp gap between yourself and the "newer" raiders. So yeh, when the new stuff drops, you get dibs on it, because (if hes in equal gear) you have acquired more DKP from putting in more time.

Should I just deleted that last paragraph, I re-read it and I don't think I got the point across that I wanted... I sound more like a elitist douche. I have no problem with helping out new raiders, explaining fights, and I enjoy seeing people get gear. However, I do mind seeing people put in more effort and demonstrate a better understanding of the fights (and their class) in order to hold the hands of someone to get 8 new pieces of gear when they got carried. Because if that's what happens, the people doing their job well will start losing motivation to perform.... that's when encounters become hard for everyone.

MAJOR EXAMPLE: DYING IN FUCKING VOID ZONES

Eureka! I'll be 100% happy with our auction system with 2 tweaks. 1) Minimum bids (even if its like 10)
2) DKP subtractions for being an idiot and not helping the raid
Examples include, but are not limited to:

• Dying in a void zone (ITS A HUGE FUCKING GRAPHIC...BRIGHTLY COLORED...if you die in this you are basically saying "I'm not paying attention at all"
• Not enchanting gear (If you were willing to bid on a piece of gear, you better be willing to enchant it... by not, you are hurting the raid... someone else could have used it... and they would have enchanted it)
• Consistently not performing (ie, shitty healing/dps consistently on known encounters) -- if you're decked out in the same gear as someone doing twice your HPS/DPS, you're doing something wrong... take the initiative to find out why you suck and they don't... this game isn't hard

I feel you on that last note. I have seen some players who I wont yet name, but soon will, that have gotten some preeetty significant gear upgrades...... yet still dont perform up to snuff.

lol yeah if only... i edited a post on page 2 about my hunter, if ppl are pist about him in the raid last night. sad part is i beat ppl on boss fights...that didn't die.

PS: back in my last kara raiding guild i ran the dkp and there was an item you could spend dkp on called 'serious pants'. they were 20dkp which was like 3-4 bosses. If you fucked up 'and not just a little oops' you bought yourself some mandatory 'serious pants'. I think we should do this too.

Doubt anyone is mad, you aren't the only one who sit around asking if they can bring a terribly under geared alt in to raids.

Gotta be honest though, your hunter's gear was pretty terrible (level 70 pvp lol) which didn't help at all. You knew the fights and didn't wipe us, that was about the only thing going for you. I saw you at a constant 1100 dps. Pretty bad. But yeh, it is sad that you still did better than some people on certain fights... do you get my frustration when I was playing a Hunter/Warrior at the same time...didn't die on safety dance... didn't die to a void zone.. yet some people still manage to stand in a fucking void and do less dps then me on either character... carried.

Yeah absolutely, only reason I really wanted to bring my hunter in was cuz
a)It's naxx, fastest way to get this hunter into a spot he can pull his own and
b)He actually brings a raid buff we didn't have plus we had plenty deeps

Yeah the ppl who fuck up consistently for sheer lack of effort, stealing an hour of sleep for me, pisses me off as much as anybody.

Hence my frequent WTF shouting outbursts, but I know that's always a part of raiding, at least every raid I've ever been in.

PS: buying fucking craftable epics for this bitch now, I hope you're all happy. Not like I have gold to waste on gear...oh wait

Remember when we booted Thago the hunter because he typically averaged under like 50dps on boss fights in BWL and MC?

Good times.

I believe he was 32 dps on chromagus

I remember jumping out of my seat and screaming BOOYAAAAAHHHHH the first time I broke 4 digit DPS on my mage.

Back then roxxore/apolx was in VoA and thagos went their next. I had him screenshot the dmg meter on nefarian for me. He was dead last below a tank.

i dont understand why gearing 'alts' is a bad thing. where would we be without waffel's 'alt' DK tanking for us? furthermore, if someone is gearing out two characters, they are spending twice the DKP, therefore the rest of the guild is gaining more dkp for their choice.

i think when you start imposing rules on the system, more problems will arise. it's always easy to say "the grass is greener.." but it may not be the case. in the end, we are a casual guild, and we should encourage people to be casual raiders. there is obviously going to be some tension because we have several people in the guild who are top-tier players, but any guild you go to will have a spectrum of skill levels and commitment.

i like the silent auction zero-sum because it really does control itself. if we kept running naxx for months and months you would see pretty much every item drop to 1 dkp because the supply far exceeds the demand. i dont want to go into a heavy economics discussion, but our dkp system is basically a free market, except that the supply is randomly generated

I don't mind gearing alts.

I mind gearing alts who haven't proven they're going to put the effort in.

IE the gear I asked people to have- past that I have no issue.

I voted for going back to the loot council. I really don't like the new system. I'd much prefer loot council. I felt like the loot was more evenly distributed when it was loot council. Also, I really like the two words, "loot" and "council". Then you add them together, my vote is for loot council. Gearing alts isnt a bad thing either because where would be without Waffel's "alt" DK tanking for us? No where, thats where. We need to gear our alts. Loot council all the way.

Shane made it very clear when the DB dropped that his DK was his main.


This.

Said with such confidence. Dribble for prez 2012.

Greenridge makes a good point in that the zero sum system governs itself. This is so true and in my opinon best for this guild.

Crits makes a good point in that the good hardcore reliable players should be rewarded more than the scrubs- lol, but no really... the system should encourage people to not only raid but also perform well.

I believe that Ismael is a good enough guild leader to solve the alt issue IMO, because each individual situation is unique. I would say his discretion is good enough, as long as we monitor it.