Vinco, the church was not upset just because Jesus is not seen as a divine being, but because the church had documents eluding to that, yet decided to hide their documents at any cost. That's how I took it, they wouldn't have been as upset if it was just a jewish movie, but it shows that the church had the knowledge of that, and chose to hide it.

I don't accept the argument of religion using the word "faith." It's not practical in any debate on any other subject, why does religion get a special case? You can't go into a court of law, proclaiming that your subject is not guilty just because you choose to believe it. Just because you have faith that he has done nothing wrong does not prove that he has done nothing wrong, just as believing in a higher power does not prove that it exists.

There is a lot of proof that goes against religion, but the only "proof" that religion has is "faith." Explain how any life before human life can be explained through the bible if the bible is taken to be complete truth? If you say that the bible cannot be taken as complete truth, why do you get to pick and choose the parts that are true?

Ignoring the facts about evolution is not the same as ignoring the complete lack of facts in the bible. There have been things proven false from the bible, but the religious scholars provide the same response time and time again, that the scribes exaggerated the stories in the bible, or used their own creativity.

The problem with this argument is you have someone so blinded by faith that they won't listen to facts, and someone that has studied the facts and fictions that won't be persuaded on something called "faith" in a higher power.

I still don't understand why people choose to believe that their life on earth is just a test. How can you live an enjoyable life if you truly believe you're just living a test?

----




[fag]Aigimbooze[/fag]

Quote

We should learn to block all those pias fucks from our forum

--

Quote

Well keep in mind Vinco, most Jewish scholars joined Christian scholars in rebutting the Da Vinci Code’s false historical “facts.” Jews may not believe that Jesus was the Savior prophesied in the book of Isaiah and other places in the Torah/Old Testament, but not for the same reasons the Da Vinci Code claimed. Jews are not Gnostics, like those who express views like those in the Da Vinci Code are. ---- Kylera - 60 Discipline Priest - Good Twin Kyriel - 60 Shadow Priest - Evil Twin 300 Alchemy, 300 Herbalism, 300 Tailoring, 300 Facemelting

i was being a bit sarcastic in that post.

----


--

i just want to touch on one thing in your post, camera.

there are no FACTS supporting evolution, because then it wouldnt be at heory. there is evidence to support it, but no hard facts.

that said, i don't disbelieve evolution.
----


--

Vinco, I guess what I was saying is what you said in a different way. I meant that there are facts to support the theory, therefore it doesn't prove evolution but it gives more information to go on the theory. Perhaps I used the wrong word and should have used evidence from the start, but I didn't.

----




[fag]Aigimbooze[/fag]

Quote

We should learn to block all those pias fucks from our forum

--

Quote

Vinco, the church was not upset just because Jesus is not seen as a divine being, but because the church had documents eluding to that, yet decided to hide their documents at any cost. That's how I took it, they wouldn't have been as upset if it was just a jewish movie, but it shows that the church had the knowledge of that, and chose to hide it. I don't accept the argument of religion using the word "faith." It's not practical in any debate on any other subject, why does religion get a special case? You can't go into a court of law, proclaiming that your subject is not guilty just because you choose to believe it. Just because you have faith that he has done nothing wrong does not prove that he has done nothing wrong, just as believing in a higher power does not prove that it exists. There is a lot of proof that goes against religion, but the only "proof" that religion has is "faith." Explain how any life before human life can be explained through the bible if the bible is taken to be complete truth? If you say that the bible cannot be taken as complete truth, why do you get to pick and choose the parts that are true? Ignoring the facts about evolution is not the same as ignoring the complete lack of facts in the bible. There have been things proven false from the bible, but the religious scholars provide the same response time and time again, that the scribes exaggerated the stories in the bible, or used their own creativity. The problem with this argument is you have someone so blinded by faith that they won't listen to facts, and someone that has studied the facts and fictions that won't be persuaded on something called "faith" in a higher power. I still don't understand why people choose to believe that their life on earth is just a test. How can you live an enjoyable life if you truly believe you're just living a test? ---- [fag]Aigimbooze[/fag] Quote We should learn to block all those pias fucks from our forum

Wow...I think the point he was trying to make was that evolution is bad science, taken in the right context the bible and science don't contradict eachother, they compliment eachother, and if you really take a decent study on it using the imperical process (the foundation of scientific research) you find it takes a lot more faith to beleive in evalution that it does to beleive in creation. Most scientist agree on this. Even Darwin on his deathbed said his research on evalution was just the vain bablings of a young man.

But you're right about religion. Religion is just man made tradition that has nothing to do with God. Jesus said "your traditions have rendered the word of God useless". That's why it's dead. That's why you get nothing from sitting in most chatholic/whatever churches for an hour on sunday. It's 99% man made tradition making it a dead church that you won't find God in. Religion will tell you the earth is 6000 years old, the Bible won't, neither will science.

In the Bible God's says one day is as a thousand years to him, he also say's God is light, if you traveled away from earth at the speed of light for 15 days, then traveled back to earth 15 day. 30 days would pass for you, but on earth 30,000 days would have passed. 1/1000 ratio. I always thought that was cool.

And your right again, you can't pick and chose what you want to believe out of the Bible, you believe it all or none of it. Picking and choosing what you want to believe out of it is creating a religion and a god that is intelectually acceptable to you and that is not a god that exists.

ok /end my creationism rant for today

----
Fear not Lobster Nation, For the man of soul has arrived.

two things can make WoW not fun anymore
religion
politics

you guys are turning this post into a religous debate, as interesting as it is, the video is just showing of how far organized religion goes to prove its own beliefs. Nothing wrong with that but its cool for us to poke fun at every once in a while. Were here on this earth and it really doesnt matter why. Dont waste your time questioning what events led you to be here but what your going to do now that you are.


----
"SHALOM!"
Bacardee and Cola get the job done!
http://tinyurl.com/oofrg

--
"SHALOM!"
Bacardee and Cola get the job done!

WOW, I totally agree w/ Paterooni on this subject, and no Lurther, God did not us evolution to create the universe. The book of Genesis clearly states that. The Bible also states that "truth hath fallen in the streets" & in our day & age w/ our society it's hard for people to accept the beliefs of christianity & creationism, but they are always open and have absolutely no problem w/ other beliefs. Which in the religious aspect evidently shows that there is a spiritual battle between right and wrong; good and evil.

Evolution and Christianity mix like oil and water. This whole subject of creation and evolution, and which is really the truth always goes back to the beginning of how everthing came to being. No experiment has ever shown that matter has the ability to come alive. The best explanation for life is still that "life only comes from pre-existing life". As you search for truth, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the source of all life... is GOD. There are to main types of people those who accept truth & those who'll deny it; those who take it or leave it.

Truth is often denied because today's intellectuals have lost this foundational understanding of the purpose of science. The very definition of 'science' has been altered from "acknowledge truths and laws, especially as demonstrated by induction, experiment, or observation" to "knowledge concerning the physical world and its phenomena". This definition removes the idea that "truth" exists and emphasizes natural phenomena. By this modern definition God's intervention cannot even be considered because science has been defined to exclude this possibility.

Truth operates regardless of the opinions of man just as gravity will operate regardless of belief, understanding, or interpretation. If the universe and mankind are direct creations of a personally involved God, then man's interpretations do not diminish the truth of creation.

The reason that the evidence for creation is not commonly known is because our public school system has become increasingly dominated by the philosophy of humanism. The very basis of humanism is that man, not God, is the center and measure of all things. Evolution serves as the primary justification for this belief system. Thus evolution is presented as fact in the public school system and only evidence supporting this concept is shown to the students. Yet, evolution stands in sharp opposition to a Biblical world view in the following way:

1. The bible states repeatedly that life produces only after its own kind. This is certainly true as we observe the biological world around us. Dogs stay dogs, people stay people. Yet evolution preaches that all life is a blurred continuum.

2. The God of the Bible demands unselfish sacrifice for the good of others. ". . . whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20:27)

3. Would this same God use a system of dead ends, extinctions, and survival of the fittest to make us ?

4. Belief in evolution justified the excesses of the industrial revolution, the Nazi elimination of the Jews, and the rise of Marxism and Communism. It also serves as the justification for the disbelief in God. Although modern evolutionists try to distance themselves from the consequences of taking their theory into a social realm, these historical atrocities are the result of taking evolutionary philosophy to its logical conclusion. If we are a product of biological forces why not extend these forces into our own dealing with other humans? Animal groups do not lament wiping each other out in order to survive. Why shouldn't we do the same if we are just part of an evolutionary process that formed us? Creation is the event that ultimately gives us life value because it links every human's values to their Creator who loved him enough to die for him.

There is abundant scientific evidence that macro-evolution has never taken place. The fossil record shows no credible links between major groups of plants and animals; the chemical structure of DNA contains useful information which could not have developed by natural process; and there is abundant evidence for a worldwide flood which contradicts evolution. Evolution is a philosophy unsupported by the majority of scientific observations whose influence has been a detriment to society and true scientific advancement.

----

/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3


--
/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3

I don't know, if ppl wanna have an indepth civil debate on a guild forum post how does that wreck wow? i'd rather encourage good discussion like this rather than police the forums from containing personal views.

----
Fear not Lobster Nation, For the man of soul has arrived.

Ok found some time to answer some things. Ugh this is too long :O

I hope you can find the time to read it, lol.

Quote

Vinco, the church was not upset just because Jesus is not seen as a divine being, but because the church had documents eluding to that, yet decided to hide their documents at any cost. That's how I took it, they wouldn't have been as upset if it was just a jewish movie, but it shows that the church had the knowledge of that, and chose to hide it.

This sort of statement is why so many Christians are up in arms over the Da Vinci Code. All it takes is for someone to allege anything in a movie, claim to have proof of it without verifying that proof and people will buy into it without question. Keep in mind, the documents the Da Vinci Code puts forth as evidence that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are false testimony, are hundreds of years more recently written than the gospels themselves were.

The early church rejected these new "gospels" because they came from the revisionist Gnostics that sought to radically change the message of Jesus. Jews and Christians alike in those days had no use for the Gnostic movement because the Gnostics were irrational people that desired to change who the real God was. They were taking historical records and altering them to suit their own ends. They wanted to take the Judeo/Christian foundation and turn it into a Stoic/Epicurean abomination.

Quote

I don't accept the argument of religion using the word "faith." It's not practical in any debate on any other subject, why does religion get a special case? You can't go into a court of law, proclaiming that your subject is not guilty just because you choose to believe it. Just because you have faith that he has done nothing wrong does not prove that he has done nothing wrong, just as believing in a higher power does not prove that it exists.

Well I would be more than willing to argue the facts and scientific evidence of creation over evolution with you. We don't have to include faith in it. But this is not a subject that can be debated in a court of law. This is greater than any court. This is a debate about the origin of man and why we are here. In the end, it does not matter how many facts I provide, still many people will reject anything I say and still cling to their belief system of "I really don't know for certain."�

Quote

There is a lot of proof that goes against religion, but the only "proof" that religion has is "faith." Explain how any life before human life can be explained through the bible if the bible is taken to be complete truth? If you say that the bible cannot be taken as complete truth, why do you get to pick and choose the parts that are true?

You are probably referring to dinosaurs here. Creationist Christians and Jews reject the premise that the world is million/billions of years old or whatever the popular talking points of the culture are of the day. We believe the world began exactly as the book of Genesis described it. We believe that in the Garden of Eden, existed all "kinds" of living creatures. The land animals existed one day before man, the water based animals and birds, two days before man, the concept of day/night three days before man, and the plants four days before man.

There is no actual proof or evidence that dinosaurs existed millions or billions of years before man or that there is any history of life spanning that sort of timescale. Archaeologists use carbon dating and other dating methods to date fossils, yet fail to mention that the basis of those dating methods is assumptions that are far from consistent. We date things that we know for a fact are 50 years old, yet the dating result says it's 125,000 years old. Any number of external factors can contribute to the assumption of a wholly consistent carbon decay rate turning out to be as inconsistent as a girlfriend's attitude. >

Also, in school we're given the impression that fossils form over a period of millions of years, yet that is provable to be false. If a fish dies, does it sink to the bottom of the ocean and slowly become a fossil? No, it floats to the top and the insects and bacteria eat it up. Would it be realistic for the fossils that show fish eating other fish to have formed over millions of years? No. When wild animals die, do their bones become fossils? Not really, they just bleach and crumble.

The fossils we see around the world are not the result of millions of years of "hardening," because we've never observed a fossil forming in the ways you would describe. The only time we can see fossils form is when there is a massive and rapid burial of the living creature, compressing it quickly, causing the actual skeleton or actual creature to become petrified. So how could this have happened to so many creature around the world, such that every year we find more in the ground? I say the Old Testament has the answer. The Great Flood.

Quote

Ignoring the facts about evolution is not the same as ignoring the complete lack of facts in the bible. There have been things proven false from the bible, but the religious scholars provide the same response time and time again, that the scribes exaggerated the stories in the bible, or used their own creativity.

Well, let's get specific here. What facts about evolution are you citing? What lack of facts in the Bible are you citing? What things have been proven false in the Bible? Which stories are religious scholars saying are exaggerated and which scholars are actually making that case? I really can't answer these points without knowing where you're coming from.

Quote

The problem with this argument is you have someone so blinded by faith that they won't listen to facts, and someone that has studied the facts and fictions that won't be persuaded on something called "faith" in a higher power.

Well I don't consider myself blinded by faith, because I did not always think this way. I used to be an evolutionist with a little Christian leaning. My mind was eventually changed by this website: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

It does not teach you what to think about the world, it's shows you how to think about the world, by being thorough, meticulous, and checking the facts that you base your opinions on. It does come at it from a Christian perspective, but it also lays out Judeo/Christian creationist beliefs in a straight-forward and logical way.

Quote

I still don't understand why people choose to believe that their life on earth is just a test. How can you live an enjoyable life if you truly believe you're just living a test?

Well I can tell you that Christians and Jews do not believe life is just a test. We are here to come to know God, but because we rejected Him, we now also need to come to terms with our sin, and atone for it. Christians believe that through faith in the savior Jesus we are forgiven for our sins. By asking for forgiveness and knowing we are saved because of Jesus' sacrifice, we are saved.

Similarly, Jews believe we atone for our sins by following the Law of Moses. Many Christians accuse Jews of saying you have to *earn*� your way into Heaven, but I do not see it that way, because the Law of Moses was given to Moses by God Himself, and God is eternal and absolute and His character does not change.

As it was intended in the days of Moses, following the Law did not earn you forgiveness from God for your sins. It meant that you were asking for forgiveness and showed interest in following the Law set forth by God Himself and were willing to make personal sacrifice to the Lord to atone. God looked with favor upon those who followed His Law, not to appease God, but to show God that they do love Him despite their unfortunate rebellion.

In the end, both belief systems say God is granting forgiveness by His Grace, not by our worthiness.

----
Kylera - 60 Discipline Priest - Good Twin
Kyriel - 60 Shadow Priest - Evil Twin
300 Alchemy, 300 Herbalism, 300 Tailoring, 300 Facemelting

--
Kylera - 60 Discipline Priest - Good Twin
Kyriel - 60 Shadow Priest - Evil Twin
300 Alchemy, 300 Herbalism, 300 Tailoring, 300 Facemelting

Quote

two things can make WoW not fun anymore religion politics you guys are turning this post into a religous debate, as interesting as it is, the video is just showing of how far organized religion goes to prove its own beliefs. Nothing wrong with that but its cool for us to poke fun at every once in a while. Were here on this earth and it really doesnt matter why. Dont waste your time questioning what events led you to be here but what your going to do now that you are. ---- "SHALOM!" Bacardee and Cola get the job done! http://tinyurl.com/oofrg

Oh come on Max, just so you know, everything I post and debate about on this forum stays here. I don't bring it with me to WoW. While playing WoW, I'm too busy "owning face" as Vinco might put it. >;D

----
Kylera - 60 Discipline Priest - Good Twin
Kyriel - 60 Shadow Priest - Evil Twin
300 Alchemy, 300 Herbalism, 300 Tailoring, 300 Facemelting

--
Kylera - 60 Discipline Priest - Good Twin
Kyriel - 60 Shadow Priest - Evil Twin
300 Alchemy, 300 Herbalism, 300 Tailoring, 300 Facemelting

Quote

two things can make WoW not fun anymore religion politics you guys are turning this post into a religous debate, as interesting as it is, the video is just showing of how far organized religion goes to prove its own beliefs. Nothing wrong with that but its cool for us to poke fun at every once in a while. Were here on this earth and it really doesnt matter why. Dont waste your time questioning what events led you to be here but what your going to do now that you are. ---- "SHALOM!" Bacardee and Cola get the job done! http://tinyurl.com/oofrg

/agree

People will debate and will usually walk away w/ absolutely accomplishing nothing. Sometimes no matter what you say, how much you argue you rarely change a person/their beliefs and as Paterooni mentioned often get scolded. Some people tho tend to walk away w/ mixed emotions on these issues, but w/e this is <PiaS>; not a religious debate orginization. We play wow & we're here to have fun, but when people "start"/want to "stir the water" after someone just makes a post to "poke fun at" your bound to get people who will take it a step over the "line", which can be clearly seen here in this post.

All I have to say is GO PLAY SOME WOW, and if your gonna post something about the issues of religion and politics be careful!

PS. I <3 Paterooni!!!

----

/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3


--
/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3

Well yeah. On guild forums I always looked at it as a place where the same people you play with can talk about really anything. Sure we are together because we pwn at WoW with each other, but that doesn't mean you can't discuss other things. Sometimes you can discuss more indepth stuff, and hopefully even controversial things.

But it's always safe to keep the emotions and the epeens out of it, because someone almost always ends up furious if you don't stay respectful/unemotional.

But also remember that you will never see a true change in someone's world view right away. Debate is meant to educate the opposition about your belief system and why you subscribe to it. They may reject you right away, but hopefully they learn from you and eventually the debate can positively impact both parties involved. Everytime I'm forced to defend my beliefs I learn more, and become even more confident.

----
Kylera - 60 Discipline Priest - Good Twin
Kyriel - 60 Shadow Priest - Evil Twin
300 Alchemy, 300 Herbalism, 300 Tailoring, 300 Facemelting

--
Kylera - 60 Discipline Priest - Good Twin
Kyriel - 60 Shadow Priest - Evil Twin
300 Alchemy, 300 Herbalism, 300 Tailoring, 300 Facemelting

As already said by Paterooni, I don't really hold anyone's beliefs against them. We have different thoughts and are going back and forth in a civil manner. Religion and history interest me, and since this was brought up already, I thought why not continue it.

I'll post more when I get the chance, I'm going to try to actually log in for once and play. Oh yea, and eat some dinner, I've had a shitty day.

----




[fag]Aigimbooze[/fag]

Quote

We should learn to block all those pias fucks from our forum

--

I like to troll serious threads. Pay no attention to me.



----
If the Da Vinci Code, a murder-mystery novel, threatens your beliefs, then your beliefs are weak and should be threatened.

--

well stated Paterooni, i like to read your posts.

about religion and politics, what is posted in the forum stays here.

i like healthy discussions

----
Lurther

--
Lurther

Quote

I like to troll serious threads. Pay no attention to me. ---- If the Da Vinci Code, a murder-mystery novel, threatens your beliefs, then your beliefs are weak and should be threatened.

I LOL @ who really get's owned in the end

----

/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3


--
/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3

Quote

well stated Paterooni, i like to read your posts. about religion and politics, what is posted in the forum stays here. i like healthy discussions ---- Lurther

/agree

Paterooni owns this box.

----

/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3


--
/KillaCAMera
AZN blud = 1337 54uc3

Quote

Also, I'm pretty sure I have aliens in my body ---- If the Da Vinci Code, a murder-mystery novel, threatens your beliefs, then your beliefs are weak and should be threatened.

Im pretty sure this duck has aliens in his body.



----
--Igz--

--
--Igz--

Quote

Quote I like to troll serious threads. Pay no attention to me. ---- If the Da Vinci Code, a murder-mystery novel, threatens your beliefs, then your beliefs are weak and should be threatened. I LOL @ who really get's owned in the end ---- /KillaCAMera AZN blud = 1337 54uc3

lol@jews

----


--

----




[fag]Aigimbooze[/fag]

Quote

We should learn to block all those pias fucks from our forum

--